"David Friedman" <ddfr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
news:ddfr-AC19BB.14101303022008@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> In article <jPqpj.42187$ow.41920@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
> "Karl Johanson" <karljohanson@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
>> "David Friedman" <ddfr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote
>> > In article <U1opj.41959$ow.26499@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
>> > "Karl Johanson" <karljohanson@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >> Abortion is a comparatively minor sin, according to the Bible.
>> >>
>> >> ><<big snip>>
>> >>
>> >> >Your citations are ALL from the OT, concerning the Mosaic law.
>> >>
>> >> Two examples rates an all caps "ALL"? Hmmm...
>> >>
>> >> The 'New Testement' clearly states that all the leaders or all
>> >> nations
>> >> are there at god's will, as there is only god's will and that you
>> >> must
>> >> submit yourself to that will. In your country's example: Richard
>> >> Nixon
>> >> was the leader when it was made it illegal for individual states
>> >> in
>> >> the
>> >> US to ban abortion. That (according to the New Testament) was
>> >> god's
>> >> will.
>> >
>> > I don't follow the logic of your argument.
>>
>> My initial point is that (according to the Bible) abortion (abortion
>> violently induced by another in this case) is considered a minor sin
>> compared to picking up sticks on Saturday.
>
> According to the Old Testament, whose rules Christians believe have
> since been modified.
Harry just said that the ten commandments are still used by the
Catholics. The one about picking up sticks on Saturday is part of one of
those commandments.
>> I was talking about what the Bible and
>> one of the Catholic catechisms say outright. That there is only god's
>> will, that the leaders of all nations are there by god's will and
>> that
>> we're supposed to submit to that will. That abortion was made legal
>> in
>> some areas by god's will, isn't evidence that god wants everyone who
>> can, to rush out and have an abortion. It's evidence that she
>> considers
>> it a minor sin (if a sin at all).
>
> It's not even evidence of that.
Is so..
> Presumably, if there is a God who
> created the world, he not only made abortion legal (in some societies
> at
> some times), he also made it possible, and similarly for murder, rape,
He also made murder *required* at various points (again according to
the story). The god in the story is evil.
The Biblical rules for rape are pretty clear. If the victim was raped in
a city, kill them. If raped outside of a city, force them to marry the
rapist. If' you're slave, the Bible says that Jesus says you're
supposed to put up with whatever your owner tells you to do, even if
they're abusive.
> ... . The usual explanation of that, as I understand it, is linked to
> the explanation of free will--in some sense it is better to have
> people
> who could have sinned and didn't than to have people who didn't sin
> because doing so was impossible.
This isn't about the usual free will argument (which you've presented
well). It's about a specific passage that explains that god put specific
leaders in place (as that's god's will) and that we're supposed to
follow them. It was god's will that Nixon came to power. God knew ahead
of time that the US would make it illegal for individual states to ban
abortion. You aren't required to have an abortion in the US, but arguing
that you shouldn't be allowed to, is arguing against god's will. It was
also god's will that Stalin came to power, and god knew ahead of time
that Stalin would ban abortion. Or the Bible is just some old stories.
Karl Johanson
Numbers 5 The Test for an Unfaithful Wife 11 Then the LORD said to
Moses, 12 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife
goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 by sleeping with another man,
and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected
(since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in
the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he
suspects his wife and she is impure-or if he is jealous and suspects her
even though she is not impure- 15 then he is to take his wife to the
priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah [c] of
barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on
it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to
draw attention to guilt.
16 " 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. 17
Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from
the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the
woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her
hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he
himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest
shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has
slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while
married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not
harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband
and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your
husband"- 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the
oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he
causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. [d] 22 May
this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen
swells and your thigh wastes away. [e] "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."
23 " 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash
them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall have the woman drink the
bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and
cause bitter suffering. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the
grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the
altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as
a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have
the woman drink the water. 27 If she has defiled herself and been
unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that
brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her
abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, [f] and she will become
accursed among her people. 28 If, however, the woman has not defiled
herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will
be able to have children.
29 " 'This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and
defiles herself while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of
jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to
have her stand before the LORD and is to apply this entire law to her.
31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will
bear the consequences of her sin.' "
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