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Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate

by tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim McDaniel) May 8, 2008 at 04:35 PM

In article <fvtrem$n7r$1@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>,
Keith F. Lynch <kfl@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>Nate Edel <archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> ... and instead proceeded unilaterally to sieze federal property
>> before Lincoln was even inaugurated.
>
>The way I always heard it, the federal government had agreed to
>evacuate Fort Sumter, but then attempted to surreptitiously reinforce
>and resupply the fort.  South Carolina's government took the attempt
>as evidence of bad faith, and opened fire to prevent the fort from
>being reinforced and resupplied.

Didn't we already go around on this one?  ... To some extent, last
August.  You've shifted your ground a little; before, we were talking
about the Star of the West; now the context is the seizure of Fort
Sumter on April 12, three months later.

You're conflating and mutating several things.
- The Star of the West, January 9, in Buchanan's administration, was
  attempted to be a quiet resupply and reinforcement of Fort Sumter,
  but it was repulsed.
- Secretary of State Seward's folly was to intimate that Sumter would
  be evacuated, but Buchanan and Lincoln never promised it.
- For the next effort, in April, Lincoln informed the governor of
  South Carolina in advance and promised that it would be provisions
  only.

The first attempt, the Star of the West effort, was attempted to be
quiet:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.fandom/browse_thread/thread/b0d52fcf2dcd5ac3/f2f481f46ce6d3bb?hl=en&lnk=st&q=sumter+author%3Atmcd%40panix.com+%22star+of+the+west%22#f2f481f46ce6d3bb>

    McPherson, p. 266: "In an effort to minimize publicity and
    provocation, Scott sent the reinforcements (200 soldiers) and
    supplies on the unarmed merchant vessel Star of the West.
    Bungling marred the whole enterprise, however.  Word of the
    mission leaked to the press, while the War Department failed to
    get notice of it to Anderson, so that the garrison at Sumter was
    about the only interested party that lacked advance knowledge of
    the Star of the West's arrival at the harbor entrance January 9."

Neither Buchanan nor Lincoln agreed to evacuate Fort Sumter.
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.fandom/browse_thread/thread/b0d52fcf2dcd5ac3/b26f53f289ba26da?hl=en&lnk=st&q=#b26f53f289ba26da>

    That's far from the truth.  The incident [firing on the ship Star
    of the West, trying to supply Fort Sumter] was January 9, during
    the Buchanan administration, about 2 months before Lincoln took
    office.  Buchanan had absolutely no wish to enforce anything, much
    less provoke an incident.  McPherson, p. 265:

        One way to forestall a clash, of course, was to withdraw the
        garrison.  Though urged to do so by three southern members of
        his cabinet, Buchanan refused to go this far.  He did promise
        South Carolina congressmen on December 10 not to send the
        reinforcements Anderson had requested.  In return, South
        Carolina pledged not to attack Anderson while negotiations for
        transfer of the forts were going on.  The Carolinians also
        understood Buchanan to have agreed not to change the military
        status quo at Charleston in any way.

    Anderson, "Interpreting an ambiguous order from the War Department
    as giving him authority to move his command from weak Fort Moultie
    to powerful Fort Sumter if ncessesary to deter an attack", did so
    on December 26, which South Carolina interpreted as a "gross
    breach of faith".

        The harried Buchanan almost succumbed to southern insistance
        that he must order the garrison back to Moultrie. ...  A
        cabinet reshuffle also stiffened Buchanan's backbone [when
        Southerners resigned] ...  Stanton and Black drafted for
        Buchanan a reply to the South Carolina commissioners rejecting
        their demand for Sumter.  Buoyed by this new experience of
        firmness, Buchanan went further -- he approved a proposal by
        General-in-Chief Scott to reinforce Anderson.

But
<http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_History_of_the_Civil_War,_1861-1865/Chapter_I>
("This won the Pulitzer Prize in History in 1918") has an assertion
new to me:

    They attempted to secure Sumter by an indirect negotiation with
    the Washington government and were encouraged by the assurances of
    Seward, Lincoln's Secretary of State and most trusted
    counsellor. Had the President known of Seward's intimation, which
    was almost a promise, that Sumter would be evacuated, he would
    have been greatly perturbed and would have called a halt in the
    negotiations to the end that the Southern commissioners be
    undeceived.

<http://www.nps.gov/archive/fosu/5_Teachers/Ft.%20Sumter%20lesson%20plan2.pdf>
/
<http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:1wbAHCb38z0J:www.nps.gov/archive/fosu/5_Teachers/Ft.%2520Sumter%2520lesson%2520plan2.pdf>
says

    On April 6, Lincoln sent word to the newly elected governor of
    South Carolina, Francis W. Pickens, that Lincoln was going to send
    a fleet to bring supplies to the men at Fort Sumter, but only
    provisions. He would not send any men, ammunition or arms to the
    fort as long as the fleet or the fort was not attacked. The
    Confederate troops in Charleston had been put under the command of
    General Pierre G. T Beauregard. Beauregard sent word to Major
    Anderson on April 11, 1861, that Anderson must evacuate the
    fort. Anderson replied that he would not, but added in his reply
    that he and his men would be starved out soon if reinforcements
    did not arrive. When asked by Beauregard when that would occur,
    Major Anderson replied that they would have to leave the fort by
    noon on the 15 th of April unless they received notice to the
    contrary from Washington, DC. Beauregard, unable to wait that long
    since the Federal supply ships were getting close, sent word at
    3:20 am on April 12 that bombing would begin in an hour. At 4:30
    am, the first shot was fired ...

-- 
Tim McDaniel, tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED]





 68 Posts in Topic:
Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-04-16 21:18:18 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
"Martha Adams"   2008-04-17 09:51:02 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
"Keith F. Lynch"  2008-04-17 20:46:50 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-04-18 14:12:01 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (  2008-04-18 23:16:29 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-04-18 19:50:41 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
wdstarr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-25 18:26:26 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (  2008-04-25 23:50:04 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Daniel R. Reitman <dre  2008-04-26 00:54:05 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-04-26 13:13:04 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Daniel R. Reitman <dre  2008-04-26 20:44:58 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-04-26 18:05:25 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-05 22:23:28 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-14 22:10:44 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-08 19:54:39 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-06 20:06:28 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-07 14:10:15 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
"Keith F. Lynch"  2008-05-07 23:18:46 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (  2008-05-08 16:35:35 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-08 13:51:10 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Doug Wickstrom <nimshu  2008-05-08 17:06:34 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
wdstarr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-07 18:33:16 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-15 21:50:06 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-05-15 21:55:52 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-08 19:51:40 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-12 12:55:31 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-05-12 16:45:40 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (  2008-05-13 00:28:02 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-12 21:47:07 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (  2008-05-13 15:50:04 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
"Keith F. Lynch"  2008-05-15 20:38:50 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-08 20:03:06 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-09 22:49:26 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
"Keith F. Lynch"  2008-05-11 18:29:28 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-13 23:27:50 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-14 13:33:04 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-14 17:37:25 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-15 14:16:35 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Lee Ratner <LBRatner@[  2008-04-19 02:51:42 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-04-19 11:18:14 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-04-19 09:20:00 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-04-19 16:37:38 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
"Keith F. Lynch"  2008-04-19 13:06:49 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-04-19 19:57:39 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-04-21 12:01:48 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Doug Wickstrom <nimshu  2008-04-21 16:03:32 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Kip Williams <kiptw@[E  2008-04-21 18:21:09 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (  2008-04-21 22:36:11 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
"Keith F. Lynch"  2008-04-21 21:10:26 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (  2008-04-22 22:49:38 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
"Keith F. Lynch"  2008-04-21 21:14:46 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
wdstarr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-25 18:33:11 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
kevrob <AnSpideog@[EMA  2008-04-22 09:04:35 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
jamesd@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-04-19 16:22:36 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Aaron Denney <wnoise@[  2008-05-07 06:25:44 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Aaron Denney <wnoise@[  2008-05-09 10:22:21 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-05-09 10:43:01 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (  2008-05-09 18:29:28 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
wdstarr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-10 01:19:30 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Alfred Montestruc <mon  2008-05-11 21:23:06 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Brett Paul Dunbar <bre  2008-05-09 19:55:38 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Aaron Denney <wnoise@[  2008-05-09 19:33:23 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Aaron Denney <wnoise@[  2008-05-10 07:46:03 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
archmage@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-12 12:29:53 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Aaron Denney <wnoise@[  2008-05-12 21:15:29 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
wdstarr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-13 03:49:37 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Aaron Denney <wnoise@[  2008-05-13 06:52:44 
Re: Help design the ideal Presidential candidate
Aaron Denney <wnoise@[  2008-05-13 08:25:53 

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tan13V112 Fri May 16 9:57:50 CDT 2008.