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Science Fiction > Science > Re: Slow Stealt...
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Re: Slow Stealth

by Jack Tingle <wjtingle@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Feb 25, 2008 at 06:29 PM

Damien Valentine wrote:
> So the basic objection to Jack's original post (snipping out the mess
> about mirrors that Dwight started) is that any species with A.) the
> ability to maneuver asteroids wherever they want, is also a species
> with B.) the ability to identify and destroy dangerous asteroids.
> Therefore, asteroids wouldn't be an effective weapon against such a
> civilization, even if they don't have C.) the ability to detect and
> track all asteroids in their home system.  And they would have to have
> C if they had A and B.
> 
> Have I got this right?
> 
> John Schilling also mentions "We've seen plenty of proposals for that
> sort of thing, all of them assuming the attacker has extensive and
> highly sophisticated space
> infrastructure and the target is the United States of America of
> roughly 2000 AD."  Jack, would that work for what you have in mind?  A
> high-tech culture picking on a low-tech one, and deciding to be
> stealthy for political reasons rather than fear of retaliation?  Of
> course, you'd almost certainly have to scratch the "massive Terran
> space fleet that 20 years later non-stealthily nukes the Republick
> into near-extinction"...

That's a reasonable summary. As I said in the original post, it requires 
an inattentive target. I don't assume the target is low tech, just a bit 
careless.

Just because the target _can_ track all asteroids, doesn't mean it 
_does_ track them. Again, for example, the countries surrounding the 
Indian Ocean could have tracked tsunamis. They chose not to, for a 
variety of reasons.

Cost probably isn't one of them. The entire US NWS has a budget of less 
than $900m for 2009. There are probably less than 100 people in their 
various research and operations tsunami jobs. Let's be generous and book 
them at $200k/year each. That's $20m/year. Major network improvements 
over the last few years cost around $20m. The Indian Ocean tsunami in 
2004 killed over 200,000 people, and over $7b were donated in aid in its 
aftermath. I presume the affected nations must have lost a similar 
amount of money, some of which could have been saved with a network 
warning. Call it $14b, roughly. That's a 350:1 bet; not bad for 
insurance. So rational cost evaluation probably wasn't a big factor.

My bet is that the budget discussions in our inattentive target went 
like: "Well, yes Senator, we could check every big asteroid all the 
time, but all we need to do is spot check a few dozen a year for 
perturbation... We can contract that out to existing observatories... 
New hazardous asteroids?... No sir, we haven't found one since the big 
push in the middle of the 21st century." Note that they're _not_ 
suggesting not watching for natural hazards. They're just not thinking 
about man-made ones.

As I said before, it would only work once*, and it probably wouldn't 
work at all, if you drew attention to it with a big signature of some 
kind. A mass driver is the only thing I can think of that would stand a 
chance of being stealthy enough, and of moving a small asteroid. And 
Shilling is right, if you can't cover or neutralize the EM signature of 
the mass driver, that wouldn't work either.

Still, it is a stealthy space attack that at least _sounds_ plausible, 
limited though it is. As I say, that should be worth some extra points 
for the soon-to-be-blasted First Marshen Republick.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

*The next year's budget discussion would have a lot different tone.




 65 Posts in Topic:
Slow Stealth
Jack Tingle <wjtingle@  2008-02-23 08:21:43 
Re: Slow Stealth
SolomonW <SolomonW@[EM  2008-02-24 01:34:55 
Re: Slow Stealth
Jack Tingle <wjtingle@  2008-02-23 10:41:39 
Re: Slow Stealth
"dwight.thieme@[EMAI  2008-02-23 08:21:44 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-23 08:29:33 
Re: Slow Stealth
Bryan Derksen <bryan.d  2008-02-23 17:45:22 
Re: Slow Stealth
Jack Tingle <wjtingle@  2008-02-23 14:23:16 
Re: Slow Stealth
John Schilling <schill  2008-02-23 12:17:49 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-23 12:28:42 
Re: Slow Stealth
"dwight.thieme@[EMAI  2008-02-23 13:27:42 
Re: Slow Stealth
phoenix@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-03-04 20:10:58 
Re: Slow Stealth
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-02-23 13:42:57 
Re: Slow Stealth
"dwight.thieme@[EMAI  2008-02-23 14:59:34 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-23 17:10:37 
Re: Slow Stealth
"dwight.thieme@[EMAI  2008-02-23 17:18:56 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-23 17:41:01 
Re: Slow Stealth
"dwight.thieme@[EMAI  2008-02-23 17:56:11 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-23 17:59:49 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-23 18:17:35 
Re: Slow Stealth
"dwight.thieme@[EMAI  2008-02-23 18:42:18 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-23 20:16:31 
Re: Slow Stealth
"dwight.thieme@[EMAI  2008-02-23 21:20:27 
Re: Slow Stealth
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-02-24 07:11:41 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-23 23:21:04 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-23 23:26:35 
Re: Slow Stealth
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-02-24 14:23:07 
Re: Slow Stealth
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-24 09:43:38 
Re: Slow Stealth
"dwight.thieme@[EMAI  2008-02-24 07:59:05 
Re: Slow Stealth
Bryan Derksen <bryan.d  2008-02-25 18:55:19 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-24 10:01:37 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-25 10:27:22 
Re: Slow Stealth
Bryan Derksen <bryan.d  2008-02-25 19:01:25 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-25 12:14:29 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-25 12:22:51 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-25 13:29:51 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-25 13:45:43 
Re: Slow Stealth
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-02-25 14:25:54 
Re: Slow Stealth
Jack Tingle <wjtingle@  2008-02-25 18:29:54 
Re: Slow Stealth
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-02-25 14:53:41 
Re: Slow Stealth
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-02-26 01:05:19 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-25 15:59:16 
Re: Slow Stealth
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-02-25 20:07:00 
Re: Slow Stealth
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-02-26 05:14:09 
Re: Slow Stealth
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-02-25 22:00:52 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-26 06:25:57 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-26 06:50:56 
Re: Slow Stealth
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-02-26 23:42:25 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-26 07:24:44 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-26 07:55:36 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-26 08:14:01 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-26 08:42:32 
Re: Slow Stealth
"dwight.thieme@[EMAI  2008-02-26 09:15:57 
Re: Slow Stealth
phoenix@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-03-04 20:55:20 
Re: Slow Stealth
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-02-26 09:38:26 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-26 11:02:51 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-26 20:37:23 
Re: Slow Stealth
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-02-27 07:20:06 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-28 06:57:17 
Re: Slow Stealth
IsaacKuo <mechdan@[EMA  2008-02-28 08:49:56 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-29 06:08:57 
Re: Slow Stealth
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-02-29 23:56:22 
Re: Slow Stealth
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-02-29 07:36:41 
Re: Slow Stealth
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-29 12:36:05 
Re: Slow Stealth
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-03-01 00:05:52 
Re: Slow Stealth
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-02-29 14:42:30 

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tan13V112 Tue May 13 15:07:40 CDT 2008.