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Science Fiction > Science > Re: Hard Sci-fi...
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Re: Hard Sci-fi?

by Remus Shepherd <remus@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Apr 22, 2008 at 02:27 PM

Damien Valentine <valends3@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> Ben:
> > Huh? Watership Down has talking rabbits, so it's inconsistent with
> > what we know about science.

> So are lightsabers and time machines.  "Watership" would be "soft" sci-
> fi (if not downright "cuddly"), based around the biology of British
> rabbits and other local organisms, with their common sapience as the
> fictional element.  (Even the rabbit culture and language Adams
> proposes could be tied in with, say, anthropology or linguistics.)

   There's a point where the science is so 'soft' that you just have
to call it fantasy.  In addition to talking rabbits, Watership Down has
a ghostly black rabbit of death and a more-or-less active sun god.  It's
a fairy tale, and falls squarely in the fantasy genre.

> Well, that's the problem, isn't it?  What counts as a "genuine"
> science fiction story?  What criteria are we going to use to let
> Heinlein in -- who's using physics and astronomy "just as tools to put
> the characters in...a story about psychology, sociology, and biology"
> -- and the kick the guys who write ER episodes out -- who're using
> medicine "just as tools to..." etc.?  Because so far we've just got
> "science fiction is fiction that has some kind of science in it,
> somewhere, for some reason".

   For what it's worth, I've been using the following definitions:

   Fantasy assumes that the reader will suspend disbelief when presented
with common tropes.  ("Okay, it's an elf with a magic sword.")

   Soft science fiction uses established sci-fi tropes to create 
suspension of disbelief in the reader.  ("So he looks like an elf because
of genetic manipulation.  Okay, I'll buy that.")  Where the tropes do not 
exist, 'soft' science fiction makes no attempt to explain them.  ("And
the sword has computer-aided swinging action?  Um, all right.")

   Hard science fiction works hard to suspend disbelief in the reader, 
working from scientific principles that we know are true today.  
("The pointy ears are chimeric cartilage, altered in utero by that sect of

star-trek worshipping wackjobs that he grew up in.  And the sword uses 
liquid gallium-filled chambers, controlled by magnetic actuators that 
enhance balance and increase the power of any swing.  Cool!")

   To summarize:  Hard science fiction earns every ounce of disbelief it
gets.  Fantasy relies on the readers to be willing participants in the
suspension of disbelief.  And soft science fiction falls in between,
relying
on the fact that previous sci-fi stories have recognizable components that
readers will latch onto if given the chance.

....                                                                  ... 
Remus Shepherd <remus@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
   Journal:  http://www.livejournal.com/users/remus_shepherd/
   Comic: http://indepos.comicgenesis.com/




 192 Posts in Topic:
Hard Sci-fi?
Daniel <Krousedp@[EMAI  2008-04-16 23:45:30 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-04-17 09:05:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Peter Knutsen <peter@[  2008-04-19 08:23:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-19 09:46:46 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Leonard Erickson <shad  2008-04-20 10:26:09 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-20 13:07:20 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Leonard Erickson <shad  2008-04-21 00:43:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
nebusj-@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-19 14:36:36 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
JimboCat <103134.3516@  2008-04-17 11:20:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-04-17 11:45:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-04-18 10:10:03 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-04-18 10:11:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-04-18 11:28:44 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-18 17:49:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-19 07:48:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-04-19 11:15:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-19 11:48:01 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luna <lunachick@[EMAIL  2008-04-19 23:47:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-04-20 03:49:06 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
John Schilling <schill  2008-04-21 17:50:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-04-22 14:27:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind Kjorstad <eivin  2008-04-23 10:24:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-04-20 17:01:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-22 17:40:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-04-22 19:33:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Phillip Thorne <pethor  2008-04-22 15:11:38 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-22 20:02:29 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-04-22 20:49:49 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-04-23 01:22:34 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-04-23 01:32:54 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-04-23 13:39:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-23 12:46:03 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-04-23 08:54:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-04-27 18:10:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
"Dan Goodman" &  2008-04-28 01:46:49 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-28 02:49:42 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
"Dan Goodman" &  2008-04-28 03:31:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-02 11:55:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-05-02 15:30:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 12:45:32 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-05-03 09:21:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-02 17:12:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 08:53:08 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-05-03 09:10:58 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 18:35:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-05-03 11:06:09 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 20:36:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
jdnicoll@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-03 18:47:22 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-03 18:51:42 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 21:30:15 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-03 16:36:16 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-03 16:28:02 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Logan Kearsley <chrono  2008-05-03 16:11:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-03 19:14:44 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-04 09:32:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-05 14:11:38 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 16:41:17 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-03 19:42:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-04 08:45:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-05 14:14:35 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-05-03 20:18:06 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-04 05:53:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-04 06:07:27 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-05-04 11:42:53 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-04 16:24:26 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 16:34:17 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-05 00:36:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-04 19:57:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 17:18:17 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
"nuny@[EMAIL PROTECT  2008-05-04 20:07:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-05-04 20:52:53 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 07:52:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-06 00:57:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 08:30:16 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 18:36:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 10:04:52 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 20:44:11 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-12 17:01:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-12 18:54:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 15:42:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-12 20:44:52 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-12 20:45:06 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 20:13:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-13 13:41:19 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
John Schilling <schill  2008-05-14 11:24:48 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-13 13:46:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-15 15:30:54 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-15 17:24:56 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-15 20:38:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-16 09:32:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-05 17:17:12 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-05 20:37:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 10:48:37 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 21:10:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 12:47:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 22:18:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-06 02:39:08 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-05-11 17:25:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-11 18:57:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 13:36:01 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 23:04:27 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-05 21:34:17 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 14:53:47 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-08 22:19:53 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 15:10:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 15:52:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-08 22:05:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
JimboCat <103134.3516@  2008-05-06 09:23:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-06 19:24:46 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-06 23:44:02 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-08 02:38:27 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Robert Martinu <invali  2008-05-08 13:42:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-08 14:09:09 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-08 22:23:58 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-08 19:02:43 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind <eivindorama@[E  2008-05-09 09:13:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
jdnicoll@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-09 14:23:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-09 10:36:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-09 16:04:15 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-09 11:37:48 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-09 17:59:56 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-09 20:27:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
John Schilling <schill  2008-05-10 14:44:44 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-11 15:16:49 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-11 11:00:16 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
John Schilling <schill  2008-05-11 17:10:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-12 14:03:10 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 10:39:07 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-12 16:36:32 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 15:41:22 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-13 03:02:12 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-13 10:08:36 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind <eivindorama@[E  2008-05-16 09:26:09 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-16 04:20:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind <eivindorama@[E  2008-05-16 11:41:36 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-16 02:49:57 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-05-16 05:40:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-08 02:35:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
DougL <lampert.doug@[E  2008-05-15 07:06:55 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
"nuny@[EMAIL PROTECT  2008-05-06 20:41:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-08 02:27:54 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-05-08 11:46:19 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-08 22:26:45 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-08 22:50:47 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-09 01:05:34 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 09:30:44 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-08 23:07:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 09:18:39 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 09:17:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 19:25:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-10 13:01:54 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 20:52:28 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-10 20:19:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-10 21:07:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-10 22:01:29 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-10 22:50:14 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-11 21:19:36 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-11 09:49:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-11 10:14:02 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-12 11:34:56 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 10:36:16 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-12 19:11:07 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 15:33:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Charlie Stross <charli  2008-05-15 12:36:29 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-15 20:34:11 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind <eivindorama@[E  2008-05-16 09:17:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Robert Martinu <invali  2008-05-12 03:59:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-11 22:34:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 10:34:55 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-11 10:08:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 10:37:14 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 11:46:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 21:08:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 18:51:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-11 10:33:58 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-11 19:21:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-11 13:12:08 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-12 11:10:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-11 14:11:53 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-12 11:26:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-05-12 08:38:06 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-12 16:40:14 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 15:02:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-12 16:28:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-15 16:25:08 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Allen <invalid@[EMAIL   2008-05-15 15:09:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-15 19:48:38 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Charlie Stross <charli  2008-05-16 09:17:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-15 17:58:03 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-15 18:08:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-16 11:47:07 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-05-16 05:33:52 

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tan13V112 Fri May 16 11:16:41 CDT 2008.