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Science Fiction > Science > Re: Hard Sci-fi...
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Re: Hard Sci-fi?

by Ben Crowell <crowell08@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > May 2, 2008 at 03:30 PM

Tue Sorensen wrote:
> The idea that hard sci-fi should focus on known science is a common
> misconception. At Finncon 2007 hard SF writer Joe Haldeman said:
> 
> "Hard SF is not about *accurate* science, but about the characters’
> *attitude* to [what the book presents as] science."
> 
> Leading SF critic John Clute concurred and added: "To insist that SF
> should only feature known science is like saying that we shouldn’t
> write SF at all."

Just because you can find two quotes to support a certain point of
view, that doesn't mean that an opposing point of view represents
a "misconception."

Actually, I think the term "known science" may be an indication of
a common misconception about the nature of science, which is that
new scientific theories replace old ones wholesale. A story that
violates Newton's laws, within their realm of applicability, is
simply scientifically incorrect.

> Ultimately, the question of what hard sci-fi is, is as difficult to
> answer as the question of exactly what science is. And as you know the
> philosophers still aren't entirely in agreement about that. I think it
> becomes easier to relate to such questions if you stop talking about
> science and start talking about a scientific attitude. Once such an
> attitude is established, and supernatural silliness has been left
> behind, the universe is your oyster. Everything in the universe, and
> all aspects of its sentient inhabitants and their societies, become
> part of the realm of science; part of the scientific world view. The
> realm of sci-fi encompasses everything that is in any way - whether
> explicitly or symbolically - relevant to the development and self-
> understanding of secular humanity.

The definition you're proposing leads to absurd results. By your
criteria, The Hobbit could be called hard SF because Bilbo experiments
to see what the ring does, while Heinlein's Red Planet could not,
because the Martian characters show a lack of interest in science
and technology.

> Hard sci-fi may be a bit more specifically scientific; a bit tighter
> about the scientific elements (whether they comprise known science or
> educated speculations about future or alien science), but in the end
> hard sci-fi is simply one subgenre of science fiction which happens to
> emphasize (usually) the known laws of physics. Most sci-fi fans,
> including myself, tend to idolize hard sci-fi, but I'm finding myself
> becoming more openminded. Stories of the future which focus on social
> engineering (a la Heinlein) or grand visions of galactic colonization
> (a la space opera) are just as much sci-fi as the "hard" stuff. They
> discuss things that are relevant to human beings who understand the
> universe by way of a scientific attitude. And that, gentlemen, is the
> proverbial rub. The heart of science fiction is not science itself,
> but the exploration of the possible destinies of science-minded human
> beings.
> 
> And lastly I want to emphasize that there is no law that states that,
> in space opera or other "softer" subgenres, science takes or should
> take a backseat to the story. The writer can put as much or as little
> science into the story as he or she cares to. It's the individual
> writer's choice. Provided of course the writer isn't bound by rigid
> definitions, believing in "one right way to do it" (which is often
> wrong), as unfortunately I think that many do. But that's ignorance.
> Or lack of imagination, which is practically the same thing.

You don't need to apply the label "hard SF" inappropriately in order
to argue that soft SF can be good SF.




 192 Posts in Topic:
Hard Sci-fi?
Daniel <Krousedp@[EMAI  2008-04-16 23:45:30 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-04-17 09:05:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Peter Knutsen <peter@[  2008-04-19 08:23:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-19 09:46:46 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Leonard Erickson <shad  2008-04-20 10:26:09 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-20 13:07:20 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Leonard Erickson <shad  2008-04-21 00:43:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
nebusj-@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-19 14:36:36 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
JimboCat <103134.3516@  2008-04-17 11:20:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-04-17 11:45:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-04-18 10:10:03 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
CharlesRCaplan@[EMAIL PRO  2008-04-18 10:11:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-04-18 11:28:44 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-18 17:49:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-19 07:48:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-04-19 11:15:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-19 11:48:01 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luna <lunachick@[EMAIL  2008-04-19 23:47:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-04-20 03:49:06 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
John Schilling <schill  2008-04-21 17:50:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-04-22 14:27:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind Kjorstad <eivin  2008-04-23 10:24:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-04-20 17:01:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-22 17:40:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-04-22 19:33:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Phillip Thorne <pethor  2008-04-22 15:11:38 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-22 20:02:29 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-04-22 20:49:49 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-04-23 01:22:34 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-04-23 01:32:54 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-04-23 13:39:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-04-23 12:46:03 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-04-23 08:54:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-04-27 18:10:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
"Dan Goodman" &  2008-04-28 01:46:49 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-04-28 02:49:42 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
"Dan Goodman" &  2008-04-28 03:31:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-02 11:55:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-05-02 15:30:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 12:45:32 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-05-03 09:21:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-02 17:12:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 08:53:08 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-05-03 09:10:58 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 18:35:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Ben Crowell <crowell08  2008-05-03 11:06:09 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 20:36:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
jdnicoll@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-03 18:47:22 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-03 18:51:42 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-03 21:30:15 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-03 16:36:16 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-03 16:28:02 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Logan Kearsley <chrono  2008-05-03 16:11:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-03 19:14:44 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-04 09:32:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-05 14:11:38 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 16:41:17 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-03 19:42:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-04 08:45:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-05 14:14:35 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-05-03 20:18:06 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-04 05:53:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-04 06:07:27 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-05-04 11:42:53 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-04 16:24:26 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 16:34:17 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-05 00:36:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-04 19:57:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 17:18:17 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
"nuny@[EMAIL PROTECT  2008-05-04 20:07:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Luke Campbell <lwcamp@  2008-05-04 20:52:53 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 07:52:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-06 00:57:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 08:30:16 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 18:36:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 10:04:52 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 20:44:11 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-12 17:01:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-12 18:54:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 15:42:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-12 20:44:52 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-12 20:45:06 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 20:13:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-13 13:41:19 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
John Schilling <schill  2008-05-14 11:24:48 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-13 13:46:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-15 15:30:54 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-15 17:24:56 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-15 20:38:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-16 09:32:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-05 17:17:12 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-05 20:37:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 10:48:37 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 21:10:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 12:47:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 22:18:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-06 02:39:08 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Damien Valentine <vale  2008-05-11 17:25:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-11 18:57:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 13:36:01 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-05 23:04:27 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-05 21:34:17 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 14:53:47 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-08 22:19:53 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 15:10:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-05 15:52:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-08 22:05:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
JimboCat <103134.3516@  2008-05-06 09:23:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-06 19:24:46 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-06 23:44:02 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-08 02:38:27 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Robert Martinu <invali  2008-05-08 13:42:33 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-08 14:09:09 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-08 22:23:58 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-08 19:02:43 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind <eivindorama@[E  2008-05-09 09:13:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
jdnicoll@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-05-09 14:23:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-09 10:36:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-09 16:04:15 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-09 11:37:48 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-09 17:59:56 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-09 20:27:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
John Schilling <schill  2008-05-10 14:44:44 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-11 15:16:49 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-11 11:00:16 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
John Schilling <schill  2008-05-11 17:10:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-12 14:03:10 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 10:39:07 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-12 16:36:32 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 15:41:22 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Remus Shepherd <remus@  2008-05-13 03:02:12 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-13 10:08:36 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind <eivindorama@[E  2008-05-16 09:26:09 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-16 04:20:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind <eivindorama@[E  2008-05-16 11:41:36 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-16 02:49:57 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-05-16 05:40:51 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-08 02:35:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
DougL <lampert.doug@[E  2008-05-15 07:06:55 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
"nuny@[EMAIL PROTECT  2008-05-06 20:41:13 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-08 02:27:54 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-05-08 11:46:19 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-08 22:26:45 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-08 22:50:47 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-09 01:05:34 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 09:30:44 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-08 23:07:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 09:18:39 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 09:17:31 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 19:25:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-10 13:01:54 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 20:52:28 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-10 20:19:05 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-10 21:07:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-10 22:01:29 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-10 22:50:14 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tim Little <tim@[EMAIL  2008-05-11 21:19:36 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-11 09:49:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-11 10:14:02 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-12 11:34:56 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 10:36:16 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-12 19:11:07 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 15:33:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Charlie Stross <charli  2008-05-15 12:36:29 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-15 20:34:11 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Eivind <eivindorama@[E  2008-05-16 09:17:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Robert Martinu <invali  2008-05-12 03:59:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-11 22:34:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 10:34:55 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-11 10:08:04 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 10:37:14 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 11:46:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-10 21:08:24 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-10 18:51:23 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-11 10:33:58 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-11 19:21:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-11 13:12:08 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-12 11:10:00 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Tue Sorensen <sorenson  2008-05-11 14:11:53 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Niels <name@[EMAIL PRO  2008-05-12 11:26:40 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-05-12 08:38:06 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-12 16:40:14 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Michael Ash <mike@[EMA  2008-05-12 15:02:50 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-12 16:28:25 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-15 16:25:08 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Allen <invalid@[EMAIL   2008-05-15 15:09:41 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Erik Max Francis <max@  2008-05-15 19:48:38 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Charlie Stross <charli  2008-05-16 09:17:59 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-15 17:58:03 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-05-15 18:08:21 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
Bernard Peek <bap@[EMA  2008-05-16 11:47:07 
Re: Hard Sci-fi?
ilya2@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-05-16 05:33:52 

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tan13V112 Fri May 16 11:05:23 CDT 2008.