nuny@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
> On Apr 30, 8:41 am, Ivan Voras <ivoras@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> Supposing you live in Magic Land (tm) and with the technology of early
>> 20th century, and you encounter a zone where time doesn't "flow"
>> regularly - call it a temporal anomaly or something like that. Could
you
>> detect it?
>
> Yes, I think so.
>
>> Here are the rules:
>> - a Newtonian universe (relativistic effects don't exist; speed, energy
>> can increase indefinitely)
>
> So rate of time is not correlated with strength of gravity? IOW
> Absolute Time everywhere except within the zone?
Yes, effectively.
>
>> - "space" behaves usually - distance of 1m is always 1m, no warping
here
>> - time is messed up: it still monotonically flows forward, only
>> sometimes slower sometimes faster.
>
> Averaging to "normal" outside time over how long a period, hours, a
> day, a week, a month?
Lets say a week. It doesn't really matter here - this is actually
irrelevant and I'm willing to give it up if it would make the whole idea
simpler.
>> This is very tricky - your clocks,
>> observed locally, are always correct, but the time is different when
the
>> outside of zone is used as a referrence.
>> - you cannot compare objects (clocks, etc.) from within and without the
>> zone because of handwaving reasons. You have to work within the zone.
>
> First you say that internal time will be different from external
> time, then you say they can't be compared. Is it _impossible_ or can
> you just not think of a way to do it?
Impossible for someone inside the zone, who has to work out that he
really is in such a strange zone. Not impossible for someone outside of
it (possessing godlike high-tech, etc.) But I'm only interested in what
happens inside.
>In exactly which directions are
> you waving your hands here?
The long-term direction is that, if such anomalies can be detected, it
might be deduced, with mild handwaving if needed, that there's another
universe / region / outside of the zone with different (here, "perfect",
without anomalies) rules. Hence my original question: given such warping
of time, leaving space untouched (this is also something not exactly
necessary - I thought postulating an Newtonian space+physics would make
it all easier), can it be detected solely from inside the zone? E.g. if
you *know* absolutely (handwaving here) that space metric is completely
regular and euclidean, can you say something about time?
> But that's going to be difficult to justify if the Zone is open-air
> because the sun and moon will be visible.
It doesn't matter - let's say the Sun and the Moon and everything
observable within the tech limits (pre-Einstein 20th century) are within
the zone.
> See, there has to be an intermediate discontinuity (either a
> dimensionless membrane or a hollow volume) between the external
> universe and your Zone, and light will do strange things crossing it,
> rather comparable to the Einsteinian effects of light climbing/falling
> into a gravitational potential.
I see what you mean and I agree. But that would, in effect, also mean
comparing something from outside the zone to something inside (light).
> When the zone is running fast the sun will "turn red" and move
> across the sky slower than normal and when it's running slow the sun
> will "turn blue" and move faster than normal.
>
> Ignoring the color thing, the length of the day will not be the same
> number of pendulum periods within as without.
>
> Besides you don't need a pendulum; just construct a sundial and
> compare with a pocketwatch.
>
> Allowing for strange in-place weather that blocks direct view of the
> sky, does it prevent you from telling day from night and/or sun color
> at all?
>
> If so, you allowed early 20th century tech, so we have radio, and I
> can carry a longwave set into the zone and notice that I have to alter
> the tuning of the set to get stations of known frequencies.
>
> If you disallow radio I can string a telegraph line in and notice
> the sounder's clicks are either sharper or softer than normal,
> depending on what the discontinuity does to the line current.
>
> If you disallow _that_ you're waving your hands way too hard.
I'm not disallowing any of those (actually, a solution that has
something to do with radio or other EM discoveries of the time would be
very useful; even early Planckian quantum physics, up to and including
Einstein's work not connected with Relativity), but I really want the
solution to not involve touching or observing anything from outside the
zone. I.e. no information is to pass between the zones.
I think I could work around and relax the last one and say information
(hmm... of what kind?) can pass from outside the zone to inside the
zone, but not provoked from the inside (i.e. no bouncing radio waves on
objects outside the zone). That would alter the setting a bit
(specifically: now there must be a boundary between the zones that could
exhibit the effects talked about earlier), so I'd like to avoid it.
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