Re: Lost--Benjamin Linus: Action hero! ("The Shape Of Things To Come" spoilers)

Gumby wrote:
> Joe wrote:
>
>> On Apr 28, 5:15 pm, Gumby <gu...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>
>>> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gumby wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Gumby wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Ken from Chicago wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> "Gumby" <gu...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:4814a241$0$4079$4c368faf@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chris Schumacher wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>> news:WpKdncPydYMnD47VnZ2dnUVZ_oOnnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> P.S. "Oh, so you DO speak English."<Thud> Second best line
>>>>>>>>>>> of the night.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The thing about that scene is that it makes us almost
>>>>>>>>>> sympathesize with Ben, then we remember this is the same
>>>>>>>>>> prick that helped ice the entire Dharma Initiative, and
>>>>>>>>>> pulled the pin on the nerve gas grenade that killed his
>>>>>>>>>> father.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm beginning to think maybe Dharma was an Evil Group and
>>>>>>>>> we're going to find out Ben is the Good Guy after all.
>>>
>>>>>>>> Relive the thrill:
>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_YFevALgug
>>>
>>>>>>> How does that address my assertion?
>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't.  Its just Ken's YouTube addiction popping up in
>>>>>> polite company again.
>>>
>>>>>> As for your thought about who's Good and who's Evil, I don't
>>>>>> think the behaviour of anyone besides some of the 815 survivors
>>>>>> qualifies them as "Good Guys".  And even for them its more like
>>>>>> innocents caught in the crossfire of the Eastern Front of WWII.
>>>
>>>>> Okay, *relative* good guys. No one is pure good.
>>>
>>>> Ben is not even relatively good.
>>>
>>> Not yet, maybe ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>> If he really did have the Island's
>>>> interests at heart he wouldn't have shot Locke just because Locke
>>>> could hear the Island better than Ben could.  He's in it purely to
>>>> be the biggest fish in the pond and he'll do _anything_ to be that.
>>>
>>>> Widmore or whatever group he's part of is not relatively good.
>>>
>>> That's right. I see Widmore as the Big Evil Dude.  Ben is clearly in
>>> opposition to Widmore.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Even
>>>> discounting all of Ben's obviously self-serving lies they've proven
>>>> themselves to be decidedly less than moral.
>>>
>>> That's where the term, "relative" comes in.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The Dharma Initiative is at best so moronicly stupid as to make
>>>> one wonder if they even have working autonomic brainstems or
>>>> utterly indifferent to how many die from the side effects of
>>>> whatever goal they are pursuing.
>>>
>>>> None of them are what I'd call even relative good guys.
>>>
>>> Which is why Ben turned on them, and that's what posibly makes him
>>> the Big Good Dude. Or the Big Relatively Good Dude with Big Picture
>>> in Mind.
>>>> The best you've got
>>>> here is Jack, who's goal all along as been simply to keep alive
>>>> and get off the Island as many of the 815 survivors as possible.
>>>
>>> Nope. Jack pulled the trigger of the gun aimed at Locke's head.
>>
>>
>> That was certainly a reason to question Jack's sanity or even
>> goodness, but clearly on a relative scale, Ben is much more evil than
>> Jack.
>>
>
> I don;t think so. Ben claims to be doing things for a greater purpose.
> Jack does things to save his ass.

The operative word with Ben being "claims".  Ben's behaviour makes all
such 
"claims" dubious at an overly generous best.  If you want me to believe
Ben 
is even relatively good, he's going to have to explain _why_ the 815 
survivors should side with him.  So far he hasn't even attempted to ask
for 
their cooperation, he just lies and manipulates them.

As for Jack trying to shoot Locke, its what I would have done.  Locke has 
clearly shown himself to be either insane or following some agenda that is

most definitely _not_ in the best interests of the 815 survivors. 
Remember, 
Locke has allied himself with Ben in trying to keep the 815 survivors on
the 
Island against their will when its pretty clear that its rapidly becoming
a 
battlefield and he's been willing to destroy, at risk to their lives, any 
means of leaving he can.

As for "relative good", I used the WWII Eastern Front as a metaphor for a 
reason.  Neither Hitler's Third Reich or Stalin's USSR were "good" by any 
reasonable definition of the term I could recognize.

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