Re: Lost--Benjamin Linus: Action hero! ("The Shape Of Things To Come"

Joe sent the following on 5/1/2008 8:43 AM:
> On Apr 29, 9:11 am, Jim Gysin <jimgy...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> Gumby sent the following on 4/29/2008 8:45 AM:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Joe wrote:
>>>> On Apr 27, 8:56 am, Gumby <gu...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>> Chris Schumacher wrote:
>>>>>> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>>>>> news:WpKdncPydYMnD47VnZ2dnUVZ_oOnnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>> P.S. "Oh, so you DO speak English."<Thud> Second best line of the
>>>>>>> night.
>>>>>> The thing about that scene is that it makes us almost sympathesize
with
>>>>>> Ben, then we remember this is the same prick that helped ice the
entire
>>>>>> Dharma Initiative, and pulled the pin on the nerve gas grenade that
>>>>>> killed
>>>>>> his father.
>>>>> I'm beginning to think maybe Dharma was an Evil Group and we're
going
>>>>> to find out Ben is the Good Guy after all.
>>>> Regardless of whether Dharma was itself evil, Ben is evil, no matter
>>>> how ggod he thinks he is.  There is not justification for many of the
>>>> actions he has taken.
>>> I think there is.  If he is (or thinks he is) saving the world or
>>> perhaps all of existence, his actions are warranted (the needs of the
>>> many outweigh the needs of the few or the one).
>>>> Just as one of many examples, there is the
>>>> whole Juliet belongs to him rant and deliberately putting Goodwin in
a
>>>> situation where he was likely to be killed.
>>>> He has been shown to be a narcissistic douche on many occasions.
>>> Have you ever changed your opinion about someone after learning more
of
>>> the facts?  I have.
>> Joe seems to like thinking in terms of black and white, whereas Lost is
>> filled with a lot of gray.  In fact, it's the multiple layers of good
>> and bad in the various characters (well, most of them, anyway) that
>> keeps me interested in them.  I've always found one-dimensional
>> characters of any sort to be extremely boring *unless* they're really,
>> really, kick-a$$ evil...
>>
>> --
>> Jim Gysin
>> Waukesha, WI
> 
> Believe me, I have no problem with Gray.  I love BSG and that is
> grayer than lost.  However, I am not saying that Ben is not gray or
> does not think he is good.  However, people should be judged by the
> choices they make

Sometimes bad choices are forced on good people.  I'm not saying that 
this is the case here; I'm just saying you're making some assumptions.

> - the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Skirting politics here for a moment, was Harry Truman "evil"?  For that 
matter, is every soldier who kills in war "evil"?

> Ben has ordered executions and neither you nor the previous person has
> come up with a justification for having Goodwin killed so that he
> could be with Juliet.

My take is that Ben didn't *know* Goodwin would be killed (how could 
he?), but merely wanted him out of the picture for a while so that he 
could pursue Juliet without Goodwin interfering.  At the same time, when 
Goodwin actually *did* die, Ben wasn't all torn up about it, but I 
question whether that alone makes Ben "evil."

> I should also step back and say that I do not really believe in good
> or evil per se.

Ah, a fan of moral equivalence.  In that case, how can you think that 
Ben is "evil"?

> I believe they are primitive terms that were used by
> primitive people.

We're still primitive people in the big picture, I suspect.  And while I 
constantly find it humorous that every generation seems to think that it 
has broken the "primitive" barrier, so to speak, I would bet that any 
intelligent ET life would point at laugh at anyone who suggests that 
*anyone* breathing on this rock in 2008 is anything other than primitive.

As a species, we still have a long way to go before we can pat ourselves 
on the back on that front.

> I also believe I can come up with circumstances
> to justify almost any action.  However, there are certain character
> traits, including a complete disregard for human life, that if I have
> to use those categories, I would characterize as evil.

But Ben hasn't shown a complete disregard.  He's had other opportunities 
to kill (or try to kill) and passed on them.  So at the very least, he's 
selective when he acts in a way that's consistent with your concept of 
"evil."

> For example, If you are going to characterize anyone on this planet as
> evil, I would characterize Dick Cheney as about as evil as they
> come.

Bringing Truman and war (if tangentially) into the thread is about as 
political as I want to get.

-- 
Jim Gysin
Waukesha, WI