Re: Lost--Benjamin Linus: Action hero! ("The Shape Of Things To Come"

Joe sent the following on 5/1/2008 7:28 PM:
> On May 1, 8:57 am, Jim Gysin <jimgy...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> Joe sent the following on 5/1/2008 8:43 AM:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 29, 9:11 am, Jim Gysin <jimgy...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>> Gumby sent the following on 4/29/2008 8:45 AM:
>>>>> Joe wrote:
>>>>>> On Apr 27, 8:56 am, Gumby <gu...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>>>>>>> Chris Schumacher wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Ken from Chicago" <kwicker1b_nos...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:WpKdncPydYMnD47VnZ2dnUVZ_oOnnZ2d@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>>>>>>> P.S. "Oh, so you DO speak English."<Thud> Second best line of
the
>>>>>>>>> night.
>>>>>>>> The thing about that scene is that it makes us almost
sympathesize with
>>>>>>>> Ben, then we remember this is the same prick that helped ice the
entire
>>>>>>>> Dharma Initiative, and pulled the pin on the nerve gas grenade
that
>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>> his father.
>>>>>>> I'm beginning to think maybe Dharma was an Evil Group and we're
going
>>>>>>> to find out Ben is the Good Guy after all.
>>>>>> Regardless of whether Dharma was itself evil, Ben is evil, no
matter
>>>>>> how ggod he thinks he is.  There is not justification for many of
the
>>>>>> actions he has taken.
>>>>> I think there is.  If he is (or thinks he is) saving the world or
>>>>> perhaps all of existence, his actions are warranted (the needs of
the
>>>>> many outweigh the needs of the few or the one).
>>>>>> Just as one of many examples, there is the
>>>>>> whole Juliet belongs to him rant and deliberately putting Goodwin
in a
>>>>>> situation where he was likely to be killed.
>>>>>> He has been shown to be a narcissistic douche on many occasions.
>>>>> Have you ever changed your opinion about someone after learning more
of
>>>>> the facts?  I have.
>>>> Joe seems to like thinking in terms of black and white, whereas Lost
is
>>>> filled with a lot of gray.  In fact, it's the multiple layers of good
>>>> and bad in the various characters (well, most of them, anyway) that
>>>> keeps me interested in them.  I've always found one-dimensional
>>>> characters of any sort to be extremely boring *unless* they're
really,
>>>> really, kick-a$$ evil...
>>>> --
>>>> Jim Gysin
>>>> Waukesha, WI
>>> Believe me, I have no problem with Gray.  I love BSG and that is
>>> grayer than lost.  However, I am not saying that Ben is not gray or
>>> does not think he is good.  However, people should be judged by the
>>> choices they make
>> Sometimes bad choices are forced on good people.  I'm not saying that
>> this is the case here; I'm just saying you're making some assumptions.
>>
>>> - the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
>> Skirting politics here for a moment, was Harry Truman "evil"?  For that
>> matter, is every soldier who kills in war "evil"?
> 
> No.  Most of the time those actions are justified.  Ben's actions have
> not been justified

.... yet.  That's why--short of making assumptions--you can't pass final 
judgment on the guy.

> and his actions are considerably worse than those
> of the average soldier or Harry Truman.

That's arguable.  If you take Truman's actions out of context and just 
talk about a guy who annihilated some 200K people with a couple of new, 
hellish bombs, you might easily assume that the guy was evil.

> Ben's actions could be justified, BUT given the nature of his actions
> and the manner in which they were done, it would take a very
> convoluted explanation to justify his actions.

Personally, I have more trouble accepting some of his Goodwin-related 
actions than I do his decision to gas the Dharma employees.  Of course, 
this is based on my own assumptions of his reasons for gassing Dharma, 
and can change as facts come in.

But beyond those two things, what other "evil" things has Ben done, in 
your mind?

> One way would be, if there was some sort of cycle or repetition of
> destruction that Ben was trying to prevent,  Maybe everyone on the
> island will die or perhaps has died multiple times.  Maybe that's why
> Ben knows everything.  Maybe that's the rule change.
> 
> Having said that, we have seen no evidence that any of that is true.
>>> Ben has ordered executions and neither you nor the previous person has
>>> come up with a justification for having Goodwin killed so that he
>>> could be with Juliet.
>> My take is that Ben didn't *know* Goodwin would be killed (how could
>> he?), but merely wanted him out of the picture for a while so that he
>> could pursue Juliet without Goodwin interfering.  At the same time,
when
>> Goodwin actually *did* die, Ben wasn't all torn up about it, but I
>> question whether that alone makes Ben "evil."
> 
> The creators strongly implied that Ben knew Goodwin would be killed.

Ben knew that it was a *possibility*, not a likelihood.  And I admit 
that he used this to his advantage, but I also can't assume that Goodwin 
was one of "the good guys."

-- 
Jim Gysin
Waukesha, WI