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Science Fiction > Written > Re: Not always ...
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Re: Not always joking, it seems

by David McMillan <spamtrap@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Feb 23, 2008 at 08:45 PM

William Hyde wrote:
> On Feb 19, 3:35 am, "Marcus L. Rowland"
> <forgottenfutu...@[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>> I often wonder when I see things like this incident; you have one man
>> with a gun, and several hundred people without one. How come none of
>> them tried throwing things at him? Ru****ng the stage? Turning the fire
>> hose on him?
> 
> Just to add an SF reference, Keith Laumer (in "Worlds of the
> Imperium", I think) has a scene in  parallel world in which people do
> just that, suffering serious casualties but bringing the armed men
> (beings?) down. The narrator speculates that people could still do
> that because in the given time line, WWI never happened.

	It happens in RL, too.  Flight 93, for one example.

	Another is Yet Another School shooting, maybe three years ago (I can't 
dig up the reference, alas), which did not make the news very big b/c 
the body count was so low.  The *reason* that the body count was so low 
was that the shooter missed with most of the shots he got off, and when 
he was reloading a couple of classmates with lots of hands-on gun 
experience saw their window of op****tunity and jumped him.

	"Take cover and/or run" seems to be the default human reflex when 
facing sudden, unanticipated deadly threat.  Give people a moment to get 
their bearings, OTOH, and things can change.  In a crowded lecture hall, 
with nowhere to really *take* cover and where most students probably 
*couldn't* run away (mob scene at the doors, no doubt), most of them 
probably didn't have that critical moment to recover their equilibrium 
and realize that fighting back in some way, *any* way, might well be the 
more pro-survival option than trying to hide behind the next-forward row 
of seats. (for some reason, the phrase "keepin' up the skeer" keeps 
rolling through my mind)
	Of course, that brings up the "bell the cat" issue -- in such a crowd, 
even if some individuals realize that yelling, throwing things, or even 
a kamikaze charge might be the better option... who's going to be the 
*first*?  Who going to *want* to be the first?
	The most truly dangerous people, IMO, are not the strongest, fastest, 
or have the biggest guns.  Rather, they are the people who can *process* 
the need to resort to violence when the need arises unexpectedly and 
carry forward without dithering or uncertainty.  I don't mean people who 
are *prone* to violence, but rather people who can react with regulated, 
precisely applied violence at need *instantly,* without needing time to 
get their mental feet back under them.  Some people seem to have this 
gift naturally, most others who posess it got it by dint of long, hard 
training (which is usually connected to military or martial-arts 
training).  I've known a few such people in my life, and they were 
interesting to be around -- never threatening or blustering, always calm 
and easygoing, and yet... you *knew* that they were absolutely lethal. 
Not needlessly violent, or overreactive, but... *capable,* in a way most 
of us are not.
	Still, Flight 93 demonstrates that even ordinary people can "charge the 
gunman," once they have a chance to process the alternatives.  Most 
likely, if passengers on any of the other flights on 9/11 had had enough 
time and information to realize what was going on, most of them would 
have done something similar.  As has happened since, with the 
shoe-bomber, or the incident where Greenpeace "attacked" the
International Petroleum Exchange in London 
(http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148013,00.html).
 




 802 Posts in Topic:
Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-15 02:20:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Wim Lewis <wiml@[EMAIL  2008-02-15 02:55:50 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-14 19:49:12 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-15 02:21:37 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-14 23:38:53 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-15 11:33:39 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-15 11:19:05 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-15 11:16:59 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Petrea Mitchell <pravn  2008-02-17 18:46:47 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-17 13:19:56 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-17 21:24:02 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-18 01:03:01 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-15 05:07:21 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jette <bosslady@[EMAIL  2008-02-15 17:12:15 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"louann_m@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-19 08:42:17 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 12:28:09 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
cgoodin@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-19 20:16:20 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
lathamr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-19 20:38:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (D  2008-02-19 22:52:31 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-19 19:42:01 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
wdstarr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-19 20:31:59 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
John Schilling <schill  2008-02-20 18:33:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-20 21:48:47 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jim Lovejoy <nospam@[E  2008-02-20 23:34:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 06:02:42 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mzenier@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-21 18:56:24 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
jamesd@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-20 18:46:00 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Mark_Reichert@[EMAIL PROT  2008-02-21 12:01:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-21 12:35:04 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Willie.Mookie@[EMAIL PROT  2008-02-15 13:03:31 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-15 13:12:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (D  2008-02-15 18:11:20 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Dimensional Travele  2008-02-15 17:33:16 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Edward McArdle <mcardl  2008-02-16 11:00:30 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
throopw@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-19 07:16:04 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-19 17:26:52 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-16 00:14:21 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-15 21:37:50 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-15 18:59:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-16 05:50:33 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (D  2008-02-16 03:37:20 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Bill Snyder <bsnyder@[  2008-02-16 04:52:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-16 18:24:21 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-16 22:32:22 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kip Williams <kiptw@[E  2008-02-17 18:13:42 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-16 16:37:50 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-16 14:17:22 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-16 05:49:55 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Marcus L. Rowland&q  2008-02-19 08:35:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 12:27:26 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-19 12:15:09 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Dimensional Travele  2008-02-19 20:36:42 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
William Hyde <wthyde19  2008-02-19 09:46:25 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Howard Brazee <pbrazee  2008-02-19 18:35:45 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
wdstarr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-19 20:49:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
lathamr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-21 13:50:48 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jette <bosslady@[EMAIL  2008-02-21 19:09:20 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David McMillan <spamtr  2008-02-23 20:45:26 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-02-24 04:02:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"AJ" <tortur  2008-02-24 05:32:26 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-02-24 06:13:59 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Harmon <source@[  2008-02-24 18:03:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-02-25 06:37:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David McMillan <spamtr  2008-02-25 15:12:01 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Jay E. Morris"  2008-02-25 03:43:30 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-02-25 06:40:26 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Jay E. Morris"  2008-02-26 01:24:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-02-26 19:51:25 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Jay E. Morris"  2008-02-28 01:48:08 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-02-27 21:01:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Jay E. Morris"  2008-03-01 21:04:11 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-03-02 21:04:28 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-03-02 22:45:34 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David McMillan <spamtr  2008-02-25 15:15:02 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David McMillan <spamtr  2008-02-25 14:52:11 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-02-26 20:09:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-24 18:50:44 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Marcus L. Rowland&q  2008-02-19 22:40:52 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
wdstarr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-19 20:23:49 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 22:38:28 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-19 19:44:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 23:44:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jette <bosslady@[EMAIL  2008-02-20 16:38:56 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 22:37:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Robert Sneddon <fred@[  2008-02-20 20:37:22 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
lathamr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-21 13:35:53 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-21 18:58:30 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-22 00:05:37 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (D  2008-02-21 20:10:16 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 16:53:59 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kurt Busiek <kurt@[EMA  2008-02-21 16:57:40 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-22 00:22:55 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Robert Sneddon <fred@[  2008-02-20 20:44:57 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-20 19:56:40 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
ken65@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-20 14:02:55 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-20 22:24:03 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
ken65@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-22 12:43:53 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-22 21:28:26 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (D  2008-02-22 20:58:54 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
ken65@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-20 14:44:08 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-20 23:20:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Bill Snyder <bsnyder@[  2008-02-20 18:11:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
ken65@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-23 06:51:15 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
ken65@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-21 10:31:06 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 18:41:34 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Bill Snyder <bsnyder@[  2008-02-21 12:47:41 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 18:58:48 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"louann_m@[EMAIL PRO  2008-02-22 15:26:46 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Robert Sneddon <fred@[  2008-02-26 11:20:52 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbell@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-28 07:35:22 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Willie.Mookie@[EMAIL PROT  2008-02-15 16:13:55 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (D  2008-02-15 21:59:18 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-16 04:38:34 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Matthias Warkus <Warku  2008-02-16 09:16:02 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Willie.Mookie@[EMAIL PROT  2008-02-16 03:32:55 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-16 10:23:56 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-16 16:12:24 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Willie.Mookie@[EMAIL PROT  2008-02-16 03:35:34 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Keith F. Lynch"  2008-02-16 13:02:54 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-16 18:29:29 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Aaron Denney <wnoise@[  2008-02-16 18:53:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kurt Busiek <kurt@[EMA  2008-02-16 11:00:33 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-16 16:26:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Willie.Mookie@[EMAIL PROT  2008-02-16 03:38:49 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-16 10:21:40 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Dimensional Travele  2008-02-16 11:20:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kat R <null.space@[EMA  2008-02-16 14:32:59 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-16 19:39:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-16 12:45:42 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-17 00:50:47 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-16 16:55:45 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
John Schilling <schill  2008-02-16 17:30:34 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-17 02:20:08 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
John Schilling <schill  2008-02-17 08:47:07 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jette <bosslady@[EMAIL  2008-02-17 16:57:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-17 10:50:44 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-17 11:34:27 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jette <bosslady@[EMAIL  2008-02-17 19:39:27 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Johnston <david@  2008-02-17 19:48:27 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-17 12:08:12 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-17 12:25:52 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 19:23:57 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-21 19:21:54 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 19:48:40 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-17 21:54:26 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 19:24:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-19 01:00:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 03:16:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-19 04:03:47 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 05:28:06 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-20 01:39:28 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-20 02:49:20 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
John Schilling <schill  2008-02-19 18:25:03 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-20 02:49:28 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-21 19:25:49 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
rkshullat@[EMAIL PROTECTE  2008-02-21 21:02:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
John Schilling <schill  2008-02-22 17:19:32 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-18 01:20:27 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 19:23:17 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-18 17:52:25 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 23:00:50 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-18 22:12:37 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 03:26:41 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 00:11:46 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 05:31:03 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 03:06:40 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-19 17:21:33 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-21 19:27:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 19:31:55 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jasper Janssen <jasper  2008-03-11 21:01:39 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 19:22:47 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-18 17:54:24 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 23:03:21 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-18 22:14:27 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-19 17:22:27 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jette <bosslady@[EMAIL  2008-02-19 15:50:22 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-19 17:30:22 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-20 02:18:37 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-20 02:49:56 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-19 12:00:52 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-19 21:29:15 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jasper Janssen <jasper  2008-03-11 21:07:50 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-03-11 23:03:48 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-18 01:19:00 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
John Schilling <schill  2008-02-17 15:09:38 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 19:21:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-18 19:56:25 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 21:40:05 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-18 21:51:48 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 22:19:17 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-18 22:56:09 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 23:05:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-18 23:12:09 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-18 23:24:23 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-18 23:50:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-19 00:00:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-18 16:43:28 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 03:14:41 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-19 03:53:39 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kip Williams <kiptw@[E  2008-02-18 23:18:57 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-18 21:20:34 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 00:12:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-18 21:21:18 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 05:26:30 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Howard Brazee <pbrazee  2008-02-19 05:55:09 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jasper Janssen <jasper  2008-03-11 21:11:05 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-03-11 23:04:32 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jasper Janssen <jasper  2008-03-28 00:14:06 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-03-27 23:26:54 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-18 16:42:47 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-19 00:48:13 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-18 22:16:42 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 03:29:01 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-19 03:41:20 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 05:21:25 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-19 03:38:07 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 00:13:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-19 05:21:01 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 05:32:17 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-19 05:43:25 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-19 17:25:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 03:25:48 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-19 09:21:40 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 12:13:17 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kip Williams <kiptw@[E  2008-02-19 12:33:15 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Bill Snyder <bsnyder@[  2008-02-19 12:35:25 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kip Williams <kiptw@[E  2008-02-19 15:24:53 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
mike weber <fairportfa  2008-02-19 14:26:02 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-19 20:26:30 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kurt Busiek <kurt@[EMA  2008-02-19 11:50:28 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kip Williams <kiptw@[E  2008-02-19 15:25:48 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-19 20:23:13 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-19 05:26:07 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-21 19:31:08 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 19:56:39 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Aaron Denney <wnoise@[  2008-02-21 19:59:01 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-02-21 21:29:42 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 20:07:13 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 20:11:13 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Harmon <source@[  2008-02-21 12:44:35 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 21:46:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 23:18:35 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 23:23:56 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 23:34:07 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 23:38:12 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 23:51:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 23:59:15 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-22 00:26:37 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-22 09:43:13 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Kip Williams <kiptw@[E  2008-02-22 10:32:37 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-22 17:46:49 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (D  2008-02-22 13:29:55 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-22 18:08:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
goldfarb@[EMAIL PROTECTED  2008-02-23 10:43:46 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
douglas winston <dougl  2008-02-23 10:06:57 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-23 17:55:06 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jasper Janssen <jasper  2008-03-11 21:16:36 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-03-11 23:05:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Harmon <source@[  2008-02-22 08:48:34 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-22 17:47:28 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 21:17:32 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 21:48:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 23:19:19 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 23:24:15 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 23:34:34 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-21 20:18:38 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 21:21:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-21 12:39:06 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gutless Umbrella Carrying  2008-02-21 21:22:48 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 21:44:07 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-21 21:54:38 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-22 07:36:28 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-22 08:15:52 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-22 08:19:21 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-23 04:21:47 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
rkshullat@[EMAIL PROTECTE  2008-02-22 00:18:32 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-21 19:26:02 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-21 16:50:38 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-26 16:20:23 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"AJ" <tortur  2008-02-26 12:38:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jette <bosslady@[EMAIL  2008-02-26 16:40:07 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Harmon <source@[  2008-02-26 09:50:23 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling&quo  2008-02-26 09:16:29 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
tmcd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (  2008-02-26 17:17:25 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 10:13:53 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 10:37:39 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-21 16:51:11 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"pullo" <pul  2008-02-21 21:02:13 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-21 18:08:45 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-21 16:45:31 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Howard Brazee <pbrazee  2008-02-22 05:57:57 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-26 16:16:27 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
rkshullat@[EMAIL PROTECTE  2008-02-26 17:09:00 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
rkshullat@[EMAIL PROTECTE  2008-02-21 21:21:23 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-21 16:38:25 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
rkshullat@[EMAIL PROTECTE  2008-02-22 04:40:49 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-21 21:40:51 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
John Schilling <schill  2008-02-22 17:19:31 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-23 01:37:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-23 02:53:17 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-23 03:49:44 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-23 03:59:45 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (D  2008-02-23 03:45:02 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Terry Austin <taustinc  2008-02-23 06:07:10 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-26 19:40:52 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling&quo  2008-02-26 12:21:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
rkshullat@[EMAIL PROTECTE  2008-02-27 15:09:16 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-26 16:06:35 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling&quo  2008-02-26 09:15:40 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 10:18:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling&quo  2008-02-26 10:32:03 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 11:06:02 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling&quo  2008-02-26 12:18:47 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 22:22:19 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
sethb@[EMAIL PROTECTED]   2008-02-27 21:34:09 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-28 01:09:20 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-26 19:35:32 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 12:10:04 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-26 20:14:51 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 12:20:00 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-26 20:39:21 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 22:19:41 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-27 07:05:58 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-27 03:01:16 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
wdstarr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-27 20:48:55 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Bill Snyder <bsnyder@[  2008-02-27 09:30:38 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-27 10:34:06 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-27 12:09:04 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-26 20:16:51 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 22:24:09 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-27 07:08:06 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-27 03:00:28 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Howard Brazee <howard@  2008-02-27 19:04:22 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-02-27 18:11:14 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-28 11:32:43 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
lathamr@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-27 22:24:33 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-28 03:47:34 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-27 20:41:20 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-28 05:04:00 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sea Wasp <seawaspObvio  2008-02-28 07:10:53 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Howard Brazee <howard@  2008-02-28 05:55:53 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-28 09:21:50 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling&quo  2008-02-28 19:18:52 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Robert A. Woodward&  2008-02-28 23:27:06 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sea Wasp <seawaspObvio  2008-02-28 21:06:33 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
cgoodin@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-28 18:03:33 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sea Wasp <seawaspObvio  2008-02-28 21:17:39 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Howard Brazee <howard@  2008-02-28 19:57:04 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
cgoodin@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-02-29 18:53:32 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sea Wasp <seawaspObvio  2008-02-29 21:14:49 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
cgoodin@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-03-04 18:04:57 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Peter Bruells <usernet  2008-03-05 08:58:54 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sea Wasp <seawaspObvio  2008-03-05 08:10:53 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Peter Bruells <usernet  2008-03-05 15:20:13 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-03-05 07:20:49 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Peter Bruells <usernet  2008-03-05 16:32:38 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Mike Schilling"  2008-03-05 08:36:33 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sea Wasp <seawaspObvio  2008-03-05 20:37:39 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
cgoodin@[EMAIL PROTECTED]  2008-03-06 18:31:33 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sea Wasp <seawaspObvio  2008-03-06 19:13:31 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Patrick Baldwin <pax@[  2008-03-07 17:38:29 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Howard Brazee <howard@  2008-03-05 19:49:50 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Sean O'Hara <seanohara  2008-02-28 13:28:11 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Karl Johanson"  2008-02-29 21:59:29 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
douglas winston <dougl  2008-02-29 18:55:50 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Howard Brazee <howard@  2008-02-28 05:52:04 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-28 09:18:24 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Jette <bosslady@[EMAIL  2008-02-28 16:29:29 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
John Schilling <schill  2008-02-28 17:34:47 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Howard Brazee <howard@  2008-02-28 19:53:57 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-26 19:33:18 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
David Friedman <ddfr@[  2008-02-26 12:11:38 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
Gene Ward Smith <gene@  2008-02-26 20:18:16 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
dbd@[EMAIL PROTECTED] (D  2008-02-26 18:33:05 
Re: Not always joking, it seems
"Marcus L. Rowland&q  2008-02-27 19:47:20